netmouse | Female Friends

Female Friends

I keep accidentally starting topics I'd like to see discussion on, on fridays. When everyone is about to pay more attention to real life than livejournal for a while. (At least that seems to be the pattern.)

None-the-less, I've had this on my mind for a bit and I wanted to bring it up:

Where are all the women friends in SF?

There are some celebrated friendships in fantasy and science fiction. Frodo and Sam. Gandalf and Sam. Han Solo and Chewbacca. Yoda and Obi-wan. Spock and Kirk. Friendships that involve great and enduring loyalties. The sturdy dependable friendships of men.

So where are the pairs of female friends? Where are the bosom friends who listen to each other's fears and cheer each other on? Where are the women who mentor younger women, and the younger ones who pull older ones out of their shells? Where are the women who pick up where the last woman left off or fell sick or needed a break, and keep their society going?

Increasingly, I see strong female characters in SF. But they are isolated. I do not see the social networks I see in the SF fannish community represented in the pages of our literature. I am starting to see some, mostly in SF written by women, and I wonder if our female friendships are such a mystery, that men do not see them clearly enough to depict them, or if strong female characters are still so close to men with breasts that though they've stepped up into the role of "one of the guys" to take on leading positions, they are still not friends with each other, and the supporting roles that might be taken up by other women are still given to people with hair on their chests.

I can think of exceptions, and am pleased to realize that one author who comes to mind is Robert Heinlein. Criticised in many ways for his depictions of women, he still wrote about women who were close, affectionate friends to one another, and who enabled each others' successes.

I'm trying to think of other well-known authors who have and I'm failing. Orson Scott Card? No. Asimov? Nope. Even some prominent female authors didn't in their best-known works. McCaffrey has something of a friendship between women in Crystal Singer, but it isn't close friendship. In the dragonrider books? There were only a few, not counting the bond between the queens and their riders.

This thought process started when I read Crystal Rain, by Tobias Buckell, on Monday. It's a great first novel, well paced, intriguing, with good characters and a well-realized world setting. And after I read it swiftly in one day (hey, I liked it, I'm telling you!) I found myself commenting to

scalzi that I was wishing that some of the females were Characters (with a capital C) or that at least one of the Characters had really been female. There is one main character who is technically a woman but there is almost no way in which she takes a different role than a man might have, and her only friend is an older man.

Perhaps this is a general problem with science fiction, that in telling sweeping epics we tend to create characters who are terrible lonely and isolated. Very few of our characters have to call home to say they're running late but are on their way to dinner. Which is what I just did, so I've got to go. But please, tell me, are there any friendships between women in SF that you celebrate unto yourself? Where are they to be found and read?

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Name two women in such a relationship in real life, that you know personally.

My experience has been that women don't form those sorts of loyal friendships in the way that men do. Women will form groups, particularly focused around a specific task (e.g. the sewing circle), but there won't be the 'defend to the death' cameraderie among them. They'll huddle together to ride out the storm, but won't ride out to meet the dragon. So this is mirroring real life.

Women, for whatever reason, tend to see each other as all being equals, and it tends to bother women when one woman 'outranks' another. I know a lot of women who have trouble having female supervisors, for instance. Men, on the other hand, work out the pecking order or the totem pole stack, or whatever you want to call it, within minutes of meeting one another. Such friendships will develop between the mentor and mentoree, or the Knight and the Squire, and there just isn't a female-equivalent relationship. It only develops in cases where the women are actively trying to emulate what the boys are doing. It doesn't come naturally.

In SF, even now, the audience is largely adolescent and post-adolescent men. Oddly enough, strong female characters don't appeal to them. There is some change occuring in fantasy, especially as romance writers get a little more fantasy inclined (and as fantasy authors tap into the market for romance novels), but the audience isn't going to change much any time soon.

Hmm, I'm wondering if what you describe is more true of women in science fiction fandom, than of women in general? The women who get involved in fandom are more involved with the boys, and by that I don't mean dating them, I mean being them. We're all boys at heart here.

Chick lit is full of tales of strong women's friendships. In fact if you look at novels that are trying to be serious and not fall into the romance category, the strength of women's friendships is probably the most popular theme. I wonder if the publishing industry thinks the two markets are too far apart for any crossover books to sell?

I think this is a very astute observation, that a lot of SciFi is not only male-dominated, but is full of topics that are most often associated with men. Maybe the women fen out there are delving into the mythical 'male stereotype' by indulging in SciFi.

That might also explain the commonality of exaggerated femininity expressed in fandom (the fact that 90% of all women at a con are showing tons of cleavage, the majority of cosplay for women is geared towards sexually charged topics or displays) - it may be a reaction to that male stereotype with female stereotype.

Name two women in such a relationship in real life, that you know personally.

I can think of two pairs of long-term very serious friends of that sort off-hand, just in local fandom.

None of them are actually major SF or fantasy heroes, so we don't have anything handy that's really "like" Sam and Frodo after the Ring quest; but I don't think that's sex-based, I think it's because there just haven't been any quests at that level lately.

I have a woman in my life who has been like a second mother to me, only one who doesn't ever react in the tremendously emotional way my mother sometimes does. When I was a teenager my sister and I both went to talk to her when we needed to, and I still consult with her and make a point to see her at least a couple times a year - elder advisor/family friend. Geri Sullivan is a dear friend and mentor to me, though we have never lived in the same space. whenever she asks me for help with a project, I am there. That is actually very similar to a lot of the supporting role male friendships you see in SF. A friend of mine in seattle is one of my nearest and dearest heart-friends, water-brothers. We have those easy conversations that breed from sharing experiences and realizing we are not alone. When a problem came up at last year's ConFusion, there were rapidly three ex-conchairs there, all women, all women with authority, helping each other resolve the situation. We may not be girly bosom buddies, but we are friends and we work together to get things done. I'm not trying to emulate the boys when we run conventions, I'm just making magic happen the best way I know how. And I depend on the women around me at least as often as the men.

A lot of my closest friendships are with men, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying women shouldn't associate with men in books. But they should also associate with women, and they don't tend to in science fiction. I'm just hoping that in the fiction where we depict our ideals and explore new societies we will explore the question of how women might be friends with each other, a la the friendship between the captain and her ship's owner in a series by Elizabeth Moon.

But these are the exceptions, rather than the norm, and you're having to span the continent to create the list. You aren't saying, "There's X at work who is mentoring me very well," or "There's Z at work who I'm teaching to take over my position," or even, "There's W at the con who I'm mentoring to become conchair in a couple of years."

Meanwhile, I can walk into the place my husband works, and find half a dozen such relationships between various men today. Guy A will be helping Guy B to get up to speed, and Guy C will be grooming Guy D to take over a new product, etc.

And at the store where I work, a pro-female organization if there ever was one, there is constant inter-personal friction between the managers. In what should be an easy-to-achieve team situation, there's instead subtle competition and zealous territoriality.

The other place I work is somewhat better, but only because there is nearly constant turnover, and it's necessary to quickly train the new employees so that they can take over and train the *next* new employees in just a few months. But there's still the sense that no one had better seem to have any real rank over anyone else; the Director barely has authority and has said that it's necessary to pretend to be on the same level as everyone else if she wants to get things done.

The relationship you cite in the book by Elizabeth Moon is unusual, and gets remarked on *because* it's unusual. I think that Ms. Moon is trying to demonstrate that women *could* have these relationships, if they tried. Good for her; I hope it works. But in my day to day existence, such relationships are far outnumbered by the other sort, described above.

This is one place where I would really like to be shown that I'm wrong, and I'm seeing an odd cross-section of feminine behavior, but I don't think I am.

Actually, while I was conchair I spent a huge amount of time mentoring women who would become future conchairs. By the third year, mentoring was my primary focus. Two of the women who worked under me, went on to be very successful conchairs on their own, and one of them went on to mentor women in her turn.

Meanwhile, I can walk into the place my husband works, and find half a dozen such relationships between various men today. Guy A will be helping Guy B to get up to speed, and Guy C will be grooming Guy D to take over a new product, etc.

Are those friendships, or just good working relationships? Not that there aren't friendships at work too - I have quite a few. And I'm pleased to be friends with the other female engineer who works with me, and at least friendly with most of the other women who work there. But, you know, it's not easy for me to come up with current examples of the sort you mention, because I work in a male-dominated field. All of my supervisors are men until you get to the VP of operations and the VP of HR, neither of whome interact with me much - it's not in their job description. There are only two other women in the HCI sector and though they occassionally consult on my main project, most of the time I am working on projects where everyone else on the team is male. This year I'me working on a couple projects where the project manager is female, and that's cool, but I've only worked where I am for less than two years, so, no, I'm not going to be able to easily look around work and point to these friendships I'm talking about.

But last night we were out to a show, and my sister's old friend Cyndi was there, and there were chatting together and being silly, and I nudged Matt and said "See, female friends." It's not so rare as you say, and it's not fair to say I had to "span the continent" to create the list just because *my* friends are a bit of a diaspora, and because I didn't list all of my friendships, only a few. I don't feel like I have to demonstrate parity to argue for existence.

Are those friendships, or just good working relationships?

These are friendships: they'll go hang out after work, and elsewhere. The next thing is the important one: After one moves on to another company, they'll hire their friends from the old company to help form their team at the new company.

Strong female friendships are fairly rare in real life, and so they're fairly rare in SF.

Another reason they're rare in SF is that good fiction is based on conflict, not on getting along. Writing teachers stress this all the time: Conflict, more conflict, and then make it really hard for your protagonist.

There is another snarky sort of reason: Guys are assumed to need help, so they need a team; but women are expected to be able to do it all themselves, so they don't need help. Except maybe from some guy. ;-)

These are friendships: they'll go hang out after work, and elsewhere. The next thing is hte important one: After one moves on to another company, they'll hire their friends from the old company to help form their team at the new company.
I've been trying to figure out why I disagree with what you're saying, and I think it's this: I see guys at the company where I work acting as you describe, but this does not equate to 'strong friendships' to me. It looks more like networking and mutual exchange of services. These guys will go play golf, or go to the pub at lunch, and will keep in touch when one of them moves on - but they never appear to *just* socialise, it's all about either work or other profitable activity (like doing each other's plumbing, or discussing how to make money on property). Female friendships just don't look like that, even if they are equally strong.
I don't know how far this is just me - I work in a mainly male environment, and all my strong friendships are outside of work. Having said that, I have female colleagues in the US, and we *do* support each other, help out each others' work initiatives, discuss decisions on career direction, and put each other in touch with useful people - we just don't socialise outside work, because we're on different continents.
Strong female friendships are fairly rare in real life
This is not my experience. I see female friends supporting each other through difficult times, holidaying together, going into business together, helping out with childcare to enable each other to get where they want to be, organising events...
Another reason they're rare in SF is that good fiction is based on conflict, not getting along
I can see where you're coming from, but the whole 'two of us against the world' thing can work for two women as well as two men or one of each... Groups conflict with other groups, and you have the added bonus of being able to threaten loved ones :)

I followed a link from

ozarque's journal, btw - if you were wondering. Pleased to meet you :)

Another wanderer from

ozarque's journal.

I am a 50 year-old woman, and I've been an sf fan since I was a child.

I've had numerous friendships and mentor relationships with women throughout my life, and so have all of the woman I know - though most of the women I've known who are older than I am did not have women mentors, they have certainly chosen to mentor younger women coming into the fields they broke into without women to mentor them.. I can think of at least five women in my life who have served as mentors to me at various points, from grade school to my current job. I can think of many women I've been in a situation to be a mentor to.

I've worked in many places where women go out together after work for a couple of beers, or spend time with each other's families on the weekends - just as men do, or groups of both men and women do.

I've worked in entirely women-run co-operatives, businesses and organizations where there's been a solid dynamic of teamwork, respect, friendly problem-solving, and open communication.

As a matter of fact, my experience in life would lead me to say that men, in fact, are less likely than women to form close friendships, and that mentoring would appear to be something that certain people with greater experience/access do for other people who they perceive as being new to a field of endeavour but who appear to show promise in that field.

I have no explanation for this difference, but the real-world experiences you have had are completely alien to me.

I do think it's true that there are few representations of these kinds of relationships in science fiction writing, but I've never felt that I lacked friendship from other women sf fans. In fact, my first experience of fandom was, as an adolescent fan of Star Trek, forming a group with three other young women that focused on writing (horrible) K/S slash and custom Mary Sue sotries for each other.

(Here from

ozarque's journal). I would disagree that this is unusual. I have had a female mentor, formerly my boss. Now that I've got the Ph.D., which she's still working on, there's more parity in the relationship than there was; she still has more experience with managing bureaucracy, and she helps me out with that, but that's about it. I don't know whether we'll be "Best Friends Forever" a la 6th grade girl relationships; but my suspicion is that wherever our careers take us, we'll always be happy to see each other. And I've mentored other women (as well as men); I think I've probably taught 3 or 4 to take over for me doing archaeological photography for various projects. While close relationships among/between men might arguably tend to have different goals than close relationships among/between women, frankly, the only difference I see is that most of the men I know have more leisure time than do most of the women I know.

almost all of my friendsships with other women fall into the category of long-lasting loyal "lets go out and fight a dragon" relationships. I've had plenty of female mentors and I'm probably a female role-model to my seven year old friend that I hang out with. Either I'm not close to someone at all, and I view them as a peer whom I don't know all that well, or we're inseperably close. we know everything about each other, we learn from each other, or sometimes the learning is one-sided with one being in more of a teacher role and one being in more of a learning role depending on the relationship. it comes very naturally to me and plenty of other females and I never would have considered it trying to emulate boys. Boys are rather mysterious to me, I don't think I could emulate them very well if I tried, and I'm not sure if I'd want to.

Here from

ozarque, and your experience is very different from mine, so I have to object to the wider conclusions you're making based on it. I know very few women who don't have close relationships of all kinds with other women, but we do have to look beyond the socialization of "other women are competition for men and catching a man is the most important thing you can achieve" in order to get there. Frankly, I always felt the boys were emulating us with their friendships, because they're encouraged to be so openly aggressive with each other.

SF has an audience of men because it's been marketed to men, full stop. The marketing is changing, and more women are getting interested in the subgenre now that we're being represented within it, but it's playing catch up with fantasy, which not only makes the romance connection, but also often the fairy tale connection, and fairy tales are very aggressively marketed to girls, so it's natural to move from them to fantasy as one ages. SF is presented as being all about "that math and science stuff" in which women are not encouraged, so it could even be argued women have been discouraged from SF in the past. Hence, there was no need to present female friendships, because the audience being targeted didn't care. Happily, all that's changing, and the underlying assumptions are being challenged as the fallacies they are.

My sister for one has maintained relationships she started in highschool until the present day.

They socialze together rather than being work mates.

Name two women in such a relationship in real life, that you know personally.

I have quite a few such friendships, and know other women who do, too. So I don't feel the same pessimism.

Argh. Lemme try that again, only signing on this time first:

Name two women in such a relationship in real life, that you know personally.

I've had and continue to have many such friendships, and I know other women who do, too. So I don't feel the same pessimism about it.

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